Nicolai Lipscomb

Skipper

And that's in the state of California, just for people who may not be familiar with --

Nicolai

I grew up in Half Moon Bay. And, you know, that's kind of the first 18 years of my life. Right after that, I went to college and studied engineering for a while. And then I became a chef and did that for about 20 years. I also became a father about five years ago. So that's a big part of who I am and I got married about seven years ago. So definitely a husband as well. Combination of a father, husband, chef, a Christian, also a Taoist --

Skipper

A lot of things. So what's something that people may not guess about you, something that you feel comfortable sharing?

Nicolai

I'm a pretty candid, open-book type of person. I think the thing that a lot of people don't know about me that is kind of interesting is -- a lot of motorcyclists share it, a lot of people that jump out of airplanes share it and -- it's that we don't feel normal, like the rest of people because we need to go to a certain extreme. We need chaos in our lives, intense chaos to let out endorphins. And so what that creates, riding a motorcycle really fast makes me feel normal. While it scares other people, you know, scares me in the second but afterward, I feel a sense of calm or sense of peace. You know, I meditate and I definitely can get that sense of calm, but it's different. Like there's the endorphins aren't there; like the meditation's more of like a mental thing where the endorphins feel like it's more of a body thing.

Skipper

Like you can't get enough --

Nicolai

And so like being cooped up right now in COVID is tough because I am not out there getting stressed. I'm -- feels more safe, which I don't like. Makes me feel unsettled.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

So that's, that's kind of something that a lot of people don't know.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

Actually how I found out about it as I was on my motorcycle in 2005, doing a cross-country trip. I did three months of just riding around and I was at this hostel in Tofino, which is on Vancouver Island, and a gal that was staying at the hostel as well, we went and got like a smoothie or something. And we're hanging out on the beach. And she was telling me about skydiving, she was a big skydiver. And she's kind of the one that you know, when somebody is talking to you, and they, they tell you something, and it's like, Whoa, you just gave me insight about myself. I'd never been able to explain it. So she's kind of the one that explained it to me. And she said, you know, most likely you have what a lot of skydivers have, what a lot of people have, and it made a lot of sense.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

And so the next day when I was going down to Victoria (British Columbia), which was south in the Nanaimo, there's a bridge you can bungee jump off of, she told me that bungee jumping actually releases more endorphins, because you see the ground coming at you. So it scares you more than skydiving.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

She's like, Yeah, you should try it. You should try bungee jumping and see what it does for you. I did it. And you know, when they're when you're standing up there, you're looking down and they're like, Do you want to go in the water or not? I was like, Oh yeah. Put me in the water. And so I did it. And oh, man, I rode my motorcycle slow, which isn't something like in my nature, like I get on it and I just jam. And I remember like, it was like half-hour riding afterward and I'm just like, going slower than the speed limit and then I kind of like, Whoa, this is the most I've ever felt at peace. Like, I feel so good. And it was true. I got the endorphin high.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

And it just felt so incredible. And I haven't done it since. I want to definitely do it again. But yeah, so --

Skipper

Hmm. I have so many questions. I'm really curious, we generally have been in some version of quarantine for the last eight or nine months, what have you found while you're in this state that achieves some of that, that you have found before by bungee jumping or motorcycle riding? Or things like that?

Nicolai

Sadly, I haven't.

Skipper

No?

Nicolai

Yeah. It's a struggle. It's a big struggle for someone like me. Yeah.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

I mean, it's why I like being a chef. It's if you look at like a lot of what I do and how I tick, it's kind of like, throw me into the fire and I feel good. It's weird like a room can erupt at restaurants there, they always get chaotic, restaurants are in a constant state of chaos. So like, as a chef, a big part of what you're doing is always putting them back in order.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

And assuring people that everything will be okay. And so the crazier things get, the more I feel normal, the more I get more focused. I mean, you're moving fast. And you're thinking really, really fast. But that stress and pressure make me feel better because my mind can focus on one thing and focus intensely on it. And it kind of goes back to that same thing. Like I need that.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

That intensity.

Skipper

So let's actually get into that. Nicolai, what is the thing that we had planned to talk about today? What is that thing that you consider yourself very well versed?

Nicolai

Definitely, being a chef. Absolutely. And restaurants as a whole, you know, I know restaurants in and out because I've been so deeply entrenched in them and passionate about them, which I'm sure as a designer, I'm sure you've heard like how our brains they work so much better when you engage creativity and you're interested in them.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

I've always been interested.

Skipper

That's great. Nicolai, can we rewind? Not just to your college days when you were studying engineering, and I don't remember exactly how you described it, but this notion of cooking in general, and eventually this idea of becoming a chef, can you talk a little bit about how you discovered cooking? What was inspiring about it?

Nicolai

Yeah, absolutely. So cooking, I discovered when I was probably about seven or eight, do you remember Eggo waffles, and how popular they were then? And how much they advertised them?

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

Well, my mom wouldn't buy Eggo waffles because she knew they were full of junk.

Skipper

They're terrible. They're absolutely terrible.

Nicolai

They're made out of junk. I mean, a lot of packaged food is, right?

Skipper

Yes.

Nicolai

My mom definitely was on the -- it's funny because back then, it was like, she was super strict but he looked at it nowadays -- and they're like, man, she was dead on with what she was. And, you know, as a kid, you're like, I'm never gonna do this with my kids. And now it's like, I'm even more strict.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

But yeah, I wanted Eggo waffles. So I would make waffles and we would have 20-30 waffles all around my kitchen cooling on chopsticks, on cookie racks, on anything because you had to call the bottom, right? So you had to have them --

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

A little bit high. And my mom would come in and just be like, What are you doing? I was like seven or eight. And I'd be making my own Eggo waffles. And I would wrap them up and I freeze them. And then throughout the week, I would pop them in the toaster and have some waffles in the morning before school.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

And, you know, that's when I started cooking, and I just wanted him so bad. And so when I was in college, you know, fast forward, I guess, you know, 11-12 years. I was ah -- I've always -- I hate working on things that don't have a purpose. And so when you're in college, it's like, what degree for what career? You know, that's like the big question.

Skipper

Yes.

Nicolai

And you think outside of college --

Skipper

A + B = career. Yeah.

Nicolai

Right. And it's so I never thought it'd be in a chef. It wasn't even on the table. It was like, okay, you know, I went to school for finance, because I was always good with money. So it was like, okay, finance.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

And then I started doing that. I was like, This is awful. I don't like this.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And then I took -- I didn't switch majors -- but I tried psychology. I loved it. And then I asked the teacher what kind of jobs I could get. And he told me and I was like, That sounds awful. I love the subject, but the kind of careers you could get was just not for me.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

And then I started engineering because I loved math. I love building things. And I talked to -- I was waiting tables at the time -- and I talked to a guy that was probably like in his 70s or 80s and probably retired for 20-30 years by that point. He was telling me about electrical engineering and I'm like, Oh, that's the perfect career. That sounds great.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

I changed my major. I spent a year doing engineering classes -- Calc III, and computer programming class came about and I hated it. Like, just hated it. And so I went to, I found an engineer, I knocked on their door, and they thought I was there for like an internship. They're like, we don't internships. I'm like, No, no, no, I just need to know if all this work is worth it. And I like sure can you can hang out with me. So I went hung out with him for three days. And I found out this isn't for me, it's all on computers now. It's not what the older guy explained to me.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

It's changed. The older guy described circuit boards and going out working on them and then when I found out was computer-based --

Skipper

Like, physically building things --

Nicolai

Yeah, it was more physical but very technical --

Skipper

Intricate and yeah --

Nicolai

Yeah.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And so I really liked that. And then when it was on the computer, I can't sit there and computer program like, I was going nuts doing C++.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

Maybe Java. And so I was doing kind of the classic whining to mom moment, like, What am I gonna do? It's like three years. I now have engineering classes. I don't know if I want to be an engineer. And my mom was the one that like, she just really wanted me to go to college. It was funny -- the side story is, I was a sophomore. And they're like, Hey, Nick, if you go to college, we'll buy you a car. I was so independent at that time that I actually already had college applications filled out like it was either sophomore or junior, right whenever you're doing that. Awesome. I just got a car.

Skipper

"Something I'm already doing."

Nicolai

Yeah, it was great. So they ended up buying me a car. And I was like, Haha, I was already applying. And so they really wanted me to go to college. So if anybody else would have said it, I probably would have dismissed it. But when mom said, Why don't you look into being a chef? You've always liked cooking. The memory is so vivid, like, I can tell you the car, I can tell you where I was driving, I can tell you the weather. It was like my It was like, everything. All the visuals just spun in a circle. And then I was like, Wow. Yes.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

Chef.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

Chef, look into that.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And so I was going to school in Sacramento. So I went around Sacramento and I interviewed different chefs. And I said, How do you become a chef? And I was 19. One of them asked me, You know. Hey, you like beer? Of course, I like beer. And so he sat me down at the bar, and we drank a couple of beers and he broke it down for me. And he's said you can go to school and then get a job. You can go get a job. Or you can be an apprentice and then get a job. And he's like, you know, no matter what you do, if you go to school or be an apprentice, that's just to kind of get you primed to start learning.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And so I ended up taking a bussing job there.

Skipper

Same restaurant?

Nicolai

Same restaurant. Yeah, he didn't have a spot in the kitchen.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

But he's like, Hey, if you want and so I was waiting tables, I was going to school and I was like, Yeah, why not? So I started bussing there. And he would have me come in the kitchen every now and then. The first thing he had me do was slice a deli ham.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And I sliced the whole deli ham and I didn't know that there was a wrapper on it. And so I had to go through every slice. Like --

Skipper

It's like the ribbon on salami, right? When you buy it?

Nicolai

Yeah.

Skipper

(Laughing.)

Nicolai

You idiot. So, you know, I was there and I was like, Okay, I want to be an apprentice. I don't want to pay for school. You know, I don't want to go try something again and end up in debt.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

You know, already owe on college. So I was like, okay, apprenticeship. And my aunt lived in Sacramento and I was close to her so she was helping me look and figure this out, how do you become a chef thing out.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

She saw a PBS special with a chef named Barbara Lynch on it. And so I was like, okay, Barbara Lynch. Sounds great. I started looking into her. And you know, at the time, I thought, I didn't know what a good restaurant was.

Skipper

Mm-hmm.

Nicolai

Like, you know, looking back man, Crazy ignorant to what a good restaurant was. And calling -- so what I did is as I wanted to, I wanted a job. How do I do it?

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

So I started calling Barbara Lynch. Well, I called originally and I said, Hey, you know, I got a hold of her, she was in the kitchen. They transferred me. They said, Hey, when are you free? When's a good time to talk? She said, Tuesdays, I'm always here. You know, between service. Okay.

Skipper

So -- And that's between like lunch service and dinner service.

Nicolai

Yeah.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

Right. Between basically like lunch ends, you know, okay, around two, and then dinner picks up at five.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

So I'd call her at three o'clock every Tuesday until she'd pick up the phone and she'd be like, Hey, Nick.

Skipper

She just knew it was you... okay.

Nicolai

Hi chef. Is there anything -- And after doing that for three months, she's like, I'm gonna be in California. Why don't you come by, I'll be in Sonoma doing a demo. There was a documentary made about her.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And so they were showing it -- I think it's like Jack London park or something like that.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

So she was doing a demo outside and I showed up in like, a full suit. I'm pretty sure I had blue hair at the time. I think I had an eyebrow ring and, you know, the bars of in my ear.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And she's just like, Who the hell is this kid? Blue hair? Suit? Like, I sat down and I interviewed her. And just like, you know, she asked me some questions, but I had so many questions, right? So I was just like, what books do I need to read? What are, you know, what does it mean to become a chef?

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

You know, I'm looking into it. And there are no degrees for a chef. Like, how do you know when you're a chef?

Skipper

Sure.

Nicolai

She answered all these questions. And in the end, she said if you can get to Boston, I'll have a job for you.

Skipper

Okay, so Boston is where she was -- okay.

Nicolai

She was in Boston. And so I moved back there with I think, $1800, you know, I bought like a futon for a couple of hundred bucks. And I showed up and she's like, Well, sure, you got a job. And so I started prepping in the back and grinding it out. But that's kind of where I got my start. And she ended up the next year winning a James Beard award. So it was like, a very intense year -- a very important year -- leading up to one of her biggest moments, which was, you know, winning that James Beard award.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

She ended up promoting me a year after to open as her opening sous chef to her second restaurant, which was just insane.

Skipper

Wow.

Nicolai

Because I did not know what I was doing. I just I worked like -- I just worked and worked and work to kind of makeup -- but that's what I wanted.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

You know, I wanted to be -- I wanted to learn, and that's how you do it.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

Just get thrown in the fire and your body starts getting in the muscle memory, you know, you start learning and the more intense it is, the quicker you learn it.

Skipper

Sure. The 10,000 hours paradigm or some version of it.

Nicolai

I don't know that one. What's that one?

Skipper

Oh, Malcolm Gladwell talks about this in Blink, his book Blink.

Nicolai

Oh, yeah, I love Blink. Okay.

Skipper

So he talks about like, 10,000 hours of mastery, is really what it takes to be an expert. One of the examples that he gives is when the Beatles before they ever released their first record, when they were playing in Hamburg, Germany -- and they were playing in, you know, seedy nightclubs, or strip bars, depending on who you talk to, and they would just play around the clock, right? Taking breaks to go crash out for a couple of hours. But literally, they played for something like, you know, eight to 12 hours a day. And they did this for like, a couple of years before they ever got a recording contract. So, that's one of the examples that he brings up of someone spending that time really, like doing the work in order to gain the expertise.

Nicolai

It's awful. I read that book and I don't remember that.

Skipper

I think it's Blink. Or is it his other book? It was one of Malcolm Gladwell's books, but yeah --

Nicolai

Yeah.

Skipper

Well, anyway, how old were you when you move to Boston?

Nicolai

I think I just turned 21.

Skipper

21, okay.

Nicolai

I kind of think I was like, 21 in a couple of months.

Skipper

Okay. So 21 Sacramento.

Nicolai

In Sacramento. Yeah, it was that summer.

Skipper

So you moved to Boston, you're 21 you're there with Barbara Lynch. The following year, she wins a James Beard award, which is huge in the culinary world. And then you opened as a sous chef in her second restaurant, how much longer did you stay in Boston? Did you go to Spain right after that or --

Nicolai

I spent three years with Barbara and I spent a year at No 9 (Park). Okay, a little less than a year at B&G oysters, which was her second restaurant, she opened two -- B&G Oysters and Butcher Shop right across the street from each other. It was --

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

It's such a cool experience.

Skipper

So No 9, B&G Oysters, and Butcher Shop --

Nicolai

Yeah, the restaurants have changed so much -- and then I went back to No 9 because, you know, I really craved learning to cook, okay, and, you know, starting to manage because I was there and I just wanted to cook so she had me come over and I worked every station and then close to finishing up there, I started talking to her about, Hey, what's next? Because I had gotten an apprenticeship with her.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And I was her first apprentice, you know, so like, it wasn't just a job. It was like, What should I do next? What should I read or should I be doing?

Skipper

So, mentoring as well. So it wasn't just like the paycheck and the experience, but it was also about the guidance.

Nicolai

Yeah, yeah. And I didn't know anyone. So I was 100% immersed in cooking, which is, I mean, what you really have to do to become good at anything. And so yeah, so she was in a European -- well, I don't know if it was European, it started in Europe, but it was women chefs group --

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And she was the only American in it. And in that group was Anne-Sophie Pic and Elena Arzak -- some amazing chefs. And Spain was, like, I really wanted to go to Spain. So, because she knew Elena, you know, I wrote a letter, and then a friend of mine helped me translate it into Spanish.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And, and culturally changed it for me. She understood the culture there and you know, how to speak to write, to appease, you know, getting the --

Skipper

Be respectful and --

Nicolai

Yeah, so I wrote it in English. And she helped me in Spanish. Yeah, I sent those two letters. And so then I got a phone call. And, you know, they accepted me into their program and they actually are paired up with the school so they do a year-long program and so it's free. So from Boston, that's when I jumped on my motorcycle, rode across the country. And, you know, did that for three months, and then I lived with my brother so I could save money.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And so I just worked and saved. And, you know --

Skipper

And this is back in California?

Nicolai

In California, yeah. Northern California. My brother's there then.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And yeah, saved a bunch of money, shot back (to Spain) and started cooking. And you know, the rent in San Sebastian, which is just a gorgeous city, and it's funny because they go there and like their rent was like, I think it was like 180 for a room. How's it so cheap? Just traveled on the weekends. And, you know, they would close for a couple of weeks. So there's, there's a lot of traveling and then afterward, I took three months and traveled and while I was there, I went and ate at a restaurant called El Celler de Can Roca.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And, you know, you're back there working -- and there's, the way a lot of the Spanish restaurants work then was there'd be a few paid people and the rest would be interns.

Skipper

Oh, interesting.

Nicolai

That's how they could do such amazing food.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And so there was just a great community at Arzak, I think we would do 150 covers, which was insane for three Michelin (star) restaurant to be doing 150 covers at the service --

Skipper

What is 100? What does a cover mean?

Nicolai

A person.

Skipper

Oh, I see.

Nicolai

Yeah, we call them covers.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

It's like 150 people we fed.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And that's, that's a lot for three Michelin restaurant.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And there's 30 of us in the kitchen, though.

Skipper

Wow.

Nicolai

So, you know, it's just a good community. It's almost like being in school or something where there's just so many different people, you know, you get along with a lot of them.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

Some you don't get along with. It was fun. It was a lot of fun. I think I was, I think it was like a 25 by then. 25, 26 when I did that, and a lot of them were, you know, younger kids. So as I was a little bit older, and I had a lot of experience from cooking with Barbara.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

In between that, I actually opened up a restaurant in California. So I had experience of doing that. And then while I was there, I ate at El Celler de Can Roca because the chefs were just, you know, it's kind of like, there's a buzz. Everybody's talking about restaurants, you know, if you're in that world, and El Celler de Can Roca was the place I went, had a meal there and it blew me away as best meal I've ever had.

Skipper

Wow.

Nicolai

And so of course, it was like, Okay, this is where I want to work. And so I ended up traveling for three months. And then I get back to Spain. And I go to Girona (Catalonia, Spain) where El Celler de Can Roca is, and they'd just closed for a holiday for like, I think it was like three weeks. Like, are you kidding me? So what did I do, I went, and got an apartment and in Bolonia which is a little town on the Mediterranean, and I just hung out for a few more months. And, you know, I went back and asked for a job. And they're like, Yeah, definitely.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

You know, this is the busy season, you know, we can pay you then. I was like, okay, so I went I came back to California.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

Yeah, I stayed with my brother again, you know, and then went back and worked at Can Roca, and that was again, just an unbelievable experience.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

Wow.

Skipper

What's something that you learned in that period of time that not a lot of people know, like, What's something that you experienced while you were sort of, you know, going back and forth between finding ways to save money, so you can, you know, live and focus on your work? What's something that somebody wouldn't know about that?

Nicolai

Like, specifically on the work or just kind of, like the journey?

Skipper

Either or either or whatever, like, either the journey or the work itself?

Nicolai

I'm thinking sacrifice. You know, sacrifices is kind of, you know, why do we sacrifice we we give up something today so we have something better tomorrow.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

That's kind of the reason behind sacrifice.

Skipper

So, you know, you talked about, like, you're someone who needs adrenaline and needs excitement. So what's exciting about either cooking in a kitchen like you were in Boston, or in Spain, like, what's exciting about that for you?

Nicolai

The intensity. I mean -- you have chefs are intense people. They're so passionate and they so care about, you know, pleasing their guests. I mean, it's not a career for the faint of heart.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

It's like, the better you want to be the more intense it gets. Yeah. So Arzak was like number seven in the world then.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

For the San Pellegrino, and I think Can Roca ended up coming up to number one. Then I worked for Ferran Adria who's number one, I worked at his laboratory, and like, just the professionalism is super high. But I mean, it is a chaotic world.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

So if you come from the business world, and you step into, like, what you'd call professional kitchen -- it would either look chaotic or look like, Wow, look at what's going on. Like, there are 30 people running around. And they're all in unison, you know, they're all listening to the commander.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

And they're, you know, they're pumping this beautiful food out. But the intensity is, is definitely what kind of connects the two -- that adrenaline and I mean, when I went back to Spain, you know, they, they called the food not in Spanish, but in the Basque language. You know, so I had to learn, like, What is he saying? How many is that? What does that mean, right? And so it's, you know, like, and there's an intensity doesn't stop sounds like, get on board or get the hell out of the way.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

So that intensity is amazing. And it's somewhat addictive. It's not 100% unique to restaurants, but it definitely is a unique environment.

Skipper

Yeah. So how did that experience for you, like how -- what is your relationship to cooking now?

Nicolai

You know you take where we've been going with the intensity -- and it's hard, right? And if you continue on that path it eats you up.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

Right. And so I've seen a lot of people in this transition where they want to be a chef, you know, they've definitely committed years to the craft. And then they get to a point that they start, like, wanting the next level.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And for some reason, I think people think that the higher you go, the more life balance you get.

Skipper

Right.

Nicolai

It's like, No. You don't. And connecting the two and kind of where it is now, for me, and I think for a lot of people is you accept the craziness, and you're okay with it.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

Or you burn out, right? Like, I can't tell you how many chef names, you hear about, you know, they burn out and they don't do restaurants anymore.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

Because you kind of have to be okay with the chaos. Restaurants are chaos and control, right. Like I said that earlier.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

When you're racing a clock. So you know, you do a lunch service and a dinner service. And that's what you're doing. You're taking chaos and trying to put it into control by a deadline.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

Twice a day, every day.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

It makes you tick differently.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

Totally makes you tick differently and when you become okay with that, and it doesn't affect you emotionally anymore, that's like the hurdle that I'm trying to explain like I've seen people kind of get run over by the bus if you will.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

You have to accept it. You have to learn to cope with it. But like, it's not even learning. It needs to become part of your nature.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

Or else it will eat you up. So --

Skipper

Yeah. I read an interview recently with David Chang -- because he just released a book where he talks about his own experience -- and one of the things that he also talks about in the book is his struggle with depression, and maybe it's too far to say mental illness, but it's how he coped with it. And for years, he kind of just ground through it, right? He was just like, No, this is -- I have to keep working. I have to keep focused. And but then, you know, a few years ago, when Anthony Bourdain passed away, he was like, yeah, this is, I think I have to tell this part of my story that -- and I say all of this, and this leads up to a question for you, you talked about between some of your cooking stunts, you would take a break, and some of it wasn't necessarily of your plan, right? That, you know, the restaurant wasn't going to be open or whatever it was, that opportunity wasn't lined up -- was part of taking those breaks for you also about taking a break from the kitchen, so you could be fully prepared and present while you were there.

Nicolai

100% 100%. I think there's only been one time that I've gone job to job. And it hurt.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

Yeah. Because you dive into this stuff, right? Like, you have to make it a lifestyle, right? Like your time off -- if you're not going to a winery, yeah, right, like a winery is relaxing, that's great. But when you're in the industry, it's also part of the industry.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

So you got to make your days off, like learning lessons around food, you got to go to the farmers market and enjoy it.

Skipper

Mm-hmm.

Nicolai

I mean, you don't have to do that for every restaurant. But you know, if you're trying to make a name for yourself as a chef, not as a restaurant, it needs to be an all-in type of thing. And how do you go all in, if you're just clocking in and out? Like you can't clock in and out - so you live this lifestyle? It's like, Okay, I'm going to live this lifestyle so I can get better. Because it's like, Okay, you're gonna work 60 hours a week.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

When are you going to have time to visit the farms?

Skipper

Right.

Nicolai

Like, what people vision is, what chefs do is not what we do, right? Where we're not like, at the farm, planting seeds, and all that we might have a -- I have a house now and I have a garden.

Skipper

Sure.

Nicolai

But it's not for the restaurant, I can't grow for the number of people I serve, there's no way. You have to work with your farmers, right? So you have to incorporate it, you know, it's like, the social time needs to be at the farmers market. And you need to enjoy that you need to sit down and have a meal there -- if you have that type of farmers market, meet some people there get to know the farmers and it's like, now you're getting like, the social needs that you need. You're getting the connections that you need. They're still grounded, like, in your world.

Skipper

Yeah. So we're recording this episode at the end of November 2020. And we've mentioned a few times, you know, the notion of what's happening in the world right now with COVID-19, this is something that has absolutely directly impacted the restaurant industry.

Nicolai

Yes, definitely.

Skipper

Is what we're going through right now, does it mean the restaurant industry is gonna die? Is this the last gasp of eating out? What does it mean? You know, it might feel like that, but absolutely not. No way.

Nicolai

Yeah.

Skipper

No way. People love to get together. And it's like, yeah, this has changed in the world. But we're still humans. And, you know, we're still social creatures. Yeah. We love to eat, you know, we crave it. I mean, who doesn't have craving for food and social. So it'll come back when, when it's there, it's gonna take some time, and it's gonna be a struggle. I mean, I think the sad thing right now is that you see a lot of people that have worked and gained the knowledge are getting out and going into other industries.

Nicolai

Hmm.

Skipper

And so that people that are staying in, and a lot of them are the ones that are owning and are stuck. So they might get burned out, who knows, but there's gonna be, I think there's going to be less like, as of the knowledge on how to run a restaurant. I don't think there ever be a lack on like, how to cook or talent, you know because talent like that comes from somebody's desire, right? And -- Somebody's passion.

Nicolai

Yeah, passion. Yeah, I mean, learning to cook is, you know, to be a chef, it's like, if you can't cook, then you know, you really should find a new career because that's the minimum -- like if you don't know how to cook, then --

Skipper

It's the core skill set.

Nicolai

Isn't going to work, right? And so you have to build upon all those other things to operate a kitchen. And then if you want to operate a restaurant, that's even more. And then, if you want to, you know, scale and have three or five restaurants, which that's really where, you know, you do have to get to five restaurants in order to not work so much --

Skipper

I see -- so you think that's a little bit of a sweet spot?

Nicolai

Yeah, it's between 3-5 is kind of the sweet spot where you can slow down because restaurants make 10% -- if they're doing good.

Skipper

Wow.

Nicolai

That's like, you know, yeah we're a $3 million restaurant so I should make $300,000, right? It's like, no, that's if you're doing really good. And if you have a $3 million restaurant, how many investors do you have that are taken from that pool? So a $3 million restaurant probably cost a pretty penny to open.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

Or a lot of equipment or some kind of investment or you did it right.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

So, yeah, so COVID will change things. I mean, it has. We're in another set of lockdowns, which is gonna, you know, here in Sacramento, they said the current state of lockdowns is going to close 50% of restaurants that aren't backed by chains or corporations.

Skipper

Wow.

Nicolai

And, you know, restaurants are the number one employer in California.

Skipper

Oh, I didn't know that. Okay.

Nicolai

You know, California is 1/8 of the population in the United States and the biggest employer --

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

And it's like shuttering like crazy. So it's sad. It's super sad, you know, restaurants are trying to do outdoor dining, they're trying to do models that they're not built for, which means no efficiency, which means you need more labor, and labor is kind of what kills a restaurant. So it's a nasty cycle. And it's the people that are out there fighting it, good on them and fight because this is the time that they have to.

Skipper

So what are you focused on now in your work? Are you still working in the restaurant trade? Are you looking at -- you talked about a little bit of that brain drain of people leaving the restaurant industry -- are you one of those people who moved on?

Nicolai

I mean, yes, and no. I decided to pivot in 2019.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And so this is kind of strengthens that pivot, but at the same time, it's brought me back because I pivoted away from hospitality.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And now, I'm kind of marrying the two. So I want to be in SAAS and tech. And SAAS is like solving an issue.

Skipper

Right.

Nicolai

So, where's my strength in solving issues? Well, in restaurants.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

So if I can find something that marries the two and I've, you know, got different irons in the fire and, you know, it's TBD. So I'm still consulting, which consulting right now, it's rough.

Skipper

It's strange.

Nicolai

Because normally you go in and, you know, I'm the guy that's gonna make you more money. I make money off of your margins.

Skipper

Right.

Nicolai

But now, I'll do just about anything to help you stay open. It's a lot of sympathy. You know, it's like, I'm an empathetic person, but sympathetic not usually so much. But right now, there's a lot of sympathy for what's going on.

Skipper

Yeah. Before we started recording, you mentioned that you actually worked on a line last night.

Nicolai

Yeah.

Skipper

How was that?

Nicolai

Good. Yeah. I mean, it was slow. So maybe for a good thing, or, you know, maybe not. But I mean, working on the line, it's part of my nature. I mean, I can jump on just about any line and hang --

Skipper

Did it feel like did you feel like you were sort of --

Nicolai

Like, back in the day?

Skipper

Yeah. Did you feel like you were sort of like stretching muscles that you hadn't used for a while? Even if it was a different pace?

Nicolai

My back?

Skipper

Oh, your back?

Nicolai

It's like riding a bike. Totally.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

What's hard is when you don't know the food, you know? What goes in this? What is this? But I've been there for two weeks or three weeks. So --

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

Yeah, it was good. I mean, I definitely still cook but I just not so much on the line. I more do events, you know, where it's like, cooking whole animals and building fires and serving a lot more people. That's my favorite way of cooking nowadays is is like paellas and whole animals.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

Where it's just really me feeding a bunch of people or -- my wife loves to help me, that's fun to do it with her.

Skipper

Nice. Do your kids get in on it?

Nicolai

They, they think they do. They have little plastic knives and they helped me cut stuff and they're super cute. They love cooking. They love food. So I have my outlet that I've created for cooking is called Ferdinand's Paella.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

Like Ferdinand the Bull.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And so I do whole animals and paellas to do that. And, you know, I don't need much staff to do that. So like my family will help or friends will help. It's funny. I get more professional chefs that like own restaurants wanting to hang out with me and cook paellas, and it just cracks me up because, Man, this is so cool. I get the best labor for a couple of beers. And it's so fun because they just hang out.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

And they love it. Because paella is definitely not something you see in restaurants, right? It's very much a thing you do for crowds.

Skipper

It takes a long time to cook too, right?

Nicolai

It takes about an hour -- start to finish.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

Once the stock hits the rice, it's 20 minutes and you've got to let it set. Where it takes a long time is actually the day before because the stock is so so important. That's where you're getting most all your flavor. I mean, all the ingredients definitely add to it.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

But um, your base and umami and all that stuff is coming from the stock.

Skipper

Paella is one of my favorite things when I see it on a menu, or I see that someone is going to make it -- it's always my favorite thing to try just because it's such a wonderful combination of like flavors and textures. And all of the effort that goes into making it, I think is truly wonderful.

Nicolai

Yeah, it's fun. It's such a social dish, right? Like, you know, you don't make paella in the back and serve it. It's how you make it.

Skipper

It's a big pot. Right near the crowd. Yeah.

Nicolai

You know, they come over, they smell it.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

My pan's a four-foot pan. So it's like the amount of steam --

Skipper

It's hard to miss.

Nicolai

You can be outside and the whole area just smells incredible. You know, I forget what book it was. I was reading something and how you can just cut some onions up and saute them and literally, people just become happier, just from the smell.

Skipper

Nice.

Nicolai

People are just so happy when you cook paella and it's their faces. It's part of the enjoyment. It's not the cooking. You know, it's a social thing. People are of course always drinking wine. Everybody has a story about the best pie they had or your you know, it's the first time they've had pie.

Skipper

Yeah, I would love to continue talking about paella and food in general but we're coming to the end of our time together --

Nicolai

Sure.

Skipper

And it's right around lunchtime --

Nicolai

Yeah, definitely.

Skipper

So I'm looking forward to whatever it is that I'm going to have for lunch, but I wonder, Nicolai if we could close things out with a couple of questions. So whether it is in regard to your cooking or other things that you've done in your life, what's one of the most important lessons that you've learned so far?

Nicolai

Patience. You know, in cooking patience is a hard lesson.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

Especially when you're starting out you're trying to get set up and you want to rush food and food doesn't want to be rushed.

Skipper

Right?

Nicolai

Food is ready when food's ready, right? So you really have to learn how to make everything work, but that learning that patience and having it become part of your character is tough. But then once you start practicing it, you can definitely see the results of it. You know, patience with people.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

Patience with life patience with a pandemic. We all probably need a little bit of patience with that right now.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

And then probably focus. I have a mind that doesn't turn off, learning focus, and learning that different means -- meditation, listening to others, tracking your results, things like that. Yeah.

Skipper

Yeah, two things that you mentioned in your introduction -- being both a Christian being a Taoist -- there's some notion of spirituality and how you find that patience and the focus that you just talked about. Those must be other ways by which you access those qualities.

Nicolai

Oh, absolutely. I think it's a forever lesson. That's a forever struggle. It's a forever --

Skipper

Yeah,

Nicolai

Journey. And, you know, we all have, we all have our differences and learning what your weaknesses are, and your strengths are, you know, it can help you along your path and patience and focus really helps me in organization. I'm not an organized person by nature.

Skipper

Hmm.

Nicolai

But I am one in life because I've learned the tools.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

And it helps me achieve results. So now people, it's funny because I think a lot of the things the ways people view me is not actually part of my nature. Like, I'm extremely shy. But --

Skipper

I don't know that I would have guessed that from talking to you.

Nicolai

But yeah, nobody and so maybe I'm not shy anymore.

Skipper

Right.

Nicolai

I'll tell you, it's inside -- it's still there. But I've learned the tools and I've learned how to navigate around it. Like I'm not an organized person. Now, I'm more organized than most people.

Skipper

Sure.

Nicolai

Because I've practiced it.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

But isn't that true for a lot of things? We spend time practicing and we get better.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

You can't get better at everything.

Skipper

No.

Nicolai

Like I'm never gonna be in the NBA.

Skipper

So, Nicolai, where can people find out more about you? Are you online? Do you have something coming up that people should be watching for?

Nicolai

LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Instagram, but very little nowadays. My website is mustardseed-hospitality, which is my consulting company. I have Ferdinand's Paella, which is my paella company. But yeah, that's how people can get ahold of me through LinkedIn.

Skipper

Cool.

Nicolai

I love chatting with people. I love the social aspect of all that stuff. And if anybody has a problem, they can email me. I love helping people when they have problems.

Skipper

That'd be great. I wonder if in the show notes, and it doesn't have to be your proprietary paella recipe. But I wonder if you have a favorite paella recipe you could share with folks who might be interested in making this at home.

Nicolai

I have ratios.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

Because the best way to cook paella is sobre la marcha, which means figure it out as you go.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

So you get kind of a base of what it takes to make a good paella. But then the ingredients are found at the farmers market, the ingredients are found at the fish market when you're standing there.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

And paella is one of those things, if you're gonna cook it once, don't (bother) but if you're gonna cook it 20 times, then -- there's a big learning curve. It's constant. I've been cooking pie for 15, 16 years, and I'm now becoming happy with my paella.

Skipper

So it's taken you 15 years to become satisfied with your paella?

Nicolai

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't sell paella for 12 years, right. I just started selling it --

Skipper

Oh, wow.

Nicolai

Three, four years ago. Yeah, I'd only do them for family, friends, and staff.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

But finally, I was like, Okay, I'm happy with them. And it's funny because the guy that taught me I call it -- like when I was in Spain, my roommate, he's from Valencia.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

That's where I learned to make pirates from him. He would make it and I would say, You're a God of rice. Every time he'd be like, you should try my dad's. This is nothing.

Skipper

Oh, wow.

Nicolai

It's funny, because I hear that same thing happening to me. This is nothing, you should try Ruben's.

Skipper

Sure. That's one thing, we didn't -- and I can't believe we didn't land on it and I'm thinking about it now as you're talking about this, your recipe is not about solid ingredients, like two cups of this and a pound of this or whatever it is, there's a lot of cooking that is improvisational. You have to -- it's dependent on what you find at the farmers market. Like if you're cooking in a restaurant, what are the things that you're finding out in the open, if it's not strawberry season, you're not going to put strawberries on the menu. But you might need to have something sweet, you might need to have some sort of berry or fruit or something else. Nothing else works in the same way that strawberry does. Blueberry doesn't work the same way -- it's not just like adding the same amount. You have to understand each one of your ingredients.

Nicolai

Yeah, it's funny because coaching cooks, they — a lot of people that work for me, they'll get to a point where they started asking me questions, they've been asking me questions for months, and then eventually they'll come up to me, they'll ask me a question and they'll stop. And they'll answer (the question) because they look at my face, and they can see the answer. And they're like, He says the same thing every time. And it's: Well, what do you think? And then they answer me and I go, That sounds like a good idea. And then they're looking at me like, because most chefs will be like, it's like this and, you know, like this, like this. And then they'll talk them through. Yeah, that sounds good. Why don't you try that? And then, you start empowering people to use what's just naturally inside of them.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

I mean -- like my wife, anybody that calls me like, Okay, well, this is how I do it. You know, this is the ratio you need. Because there is some information you need to give people. You know, paella, it's either 3-to-1 or 2-to-1, it takes 20 minutes to cook.

Skipper

Right.

Nicolai

You know, there's things that don't change that are more like the science of cooking, right?

Skipper

Sure.

Nicolai

You know, most things, you need a structure -- and then they're organic, right? And the structure is kind of the science of food.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

And so once you understand the science of food and you understand how your palate works, you understand the flavors in your mouth, you understand the flavors in your olfactory --

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

You could start really messing with palettes and really getting to know food. And then your palate grows. I mean, food is better with wisdom.

Skipper

Yeah.

Nicolai

And so you need that structure and then you need that organic and that organic is in people -- they just don't know it. Well, taste it. Is it salty? Does it need more salt? Well, what do you think? And they taste it. And they're like, it needs more salt. And you go, Yeah. It needs more salt.

Skipper

That's awesome. Well, Nicolai, thanks for making time today -- holding this space and time with me. I really enjoyed our conversation.

Nicolai

Absolutely. I had a blast talking. It's fun. You know, next time hopefully it'll be over paella and some wine.

Skipper

Yeah, totally. I'd love to take you up on that.

Nicolai

As soon as COVID is done, I'll be I'll be holding more. Until then, the backyard is where I do it.

Skipper

Yeah. I'm sure that the backyard is a happening place to be right now -- your backyard anyway. Oh, it is. I gotta pit back there. I do it over wood when I do it at home. Nice. And thank you for listening to how this works. This episode was edited and mastered by Troy Lococo. Please find us in your favorite podcast app and subscribe. While you're there, leave us a review. Also, if you could tell just one other person about the show and why they should listen. You can find how this works at howthisworks.show. That's three words, no dashes. Again, that's howthisworks.show. We're also in the places where social media happens. Thank you for taking the time to listen today. I hope you learned something from my conversation with Nicolai. I know I did. And we'll talk again soon.

[Outro music]

Nicolai

I cooked on the line first time in six years last night.

Skipper

Oh really?

Nicolai

At the place I'm consulting.

Skipper

How was that that?

Nicolai

Yeah, it's down the road.

Skipper

Okay.

Nicolai

So it was funny.

Skipper

Nice. Well, we can definitely talk about we can talk about that because I think --Okay, let's get into the nuts and bolts of the episode...